🆕 Never Post! News Post: DemonAI

Georgia talks to Matt Sitman, host of the podcast Know Your Enemy, about Pope Leo XIV's recent comments about the algorithm, and why so much of his papacy seems concerned with the cultural impact of AI. 

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• Cable faults affect Vietnam's internet 
• Pope Leo XIV warns AI could lead to tech domination

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The Pope and AI

• Algorithm could be "subtle form of domination"
• Pope Leo XIV encyclical warns against AI 

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Never Post’s producers are Audrey Evans, Georgia Hampton and The Mysterious Dr. Firstname Lastname. Our senior producer is Hans Buetow. Our executive producer is Jason Oberholtzer. The show’s host is Mike Rugnetta.

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Friends, hello, and welcome to Never Post, a podcast for and about the Internet. I'm your host, Mike Rugnetta. This intro was written on Tuesday, September 1 at 09:03AM eastern, and we have a people show for you this week. In this episode, Georgia chats with Matt Sitman, cohost of the Know Your Enemy podcast and former associate editor of the Catholic opinion journal Commonwealth about Pope Leo's recent comments about the algorithm and why so much of his papacy seems to be concerned with the cultural impact of artificial intelligence. But first, we are gonna take a quick break.

You will listen to some ads unless you're on the member feed. And when we return, we'll we'll talk about a few of the things that have happened since the last time you heard from us. You burden me with your questions. You'd have me tell no lies. You're always asking what it's all about, but don't listen to my six stories this week.

First, folks, we did a stream week. Thank you everyone who came and hung out in the chat, shared the show with your pals, and of course, became a member. Welcome. We are hoping to close a gap of 200 members before the end of the year, and stream week got us about a quarter of the way there. So if you're thinking about signing up, now is a great time to support independent media and technology criticism.

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News. Oh, am so sick of the news.

Hugging Face, the hosts of open source AI models and datasets used by industry researchers and hobbyists alike is apparently in talks to be acquired for a cool $14,000,000,000 by tech giant NVIDIA. The New York based startup that hosts models from Alibaba, Tencent, Microsoft, Google, as well as teenagers with an interest in anime titties took $235,000,000 in funding in 2023 from a combination of Salesforce alphabet and Nvidia. At the time, it was valued at around $4,500,000,000. Hugging Face turned down $500,000,000 from Nvidia earlier this year stating a desire to stay independent. Bloomberg reports that the deal hasn't been inked but is in advanced stages and includes a $1,000,000,000 employee retention package.

Fake health influencers may be targeting your parents. The New York Times, Harvard Health, Futurism, four zero four media, and more have recently noted an uptick in AI generated doctors promoting supplements and other quackery in short form video, much of it targeted at seniors. Videos often encourage viewers to stop taking their doctor prescribed medications and instead replace them with various supplements often framed as Asian medicine. A number of videos have been linked to supplement manufacturers in China. Ads like these would be illegal on US television, the New York Times writes, but on the Internet, they face little enforcement.

At the beginning of the month, former Google product manager Cody Sumter detailed a number of the fake accounts on his sub stack. Some of them have since been removed from YouTube. Deleted. Don't pick the mushrooms, asks the Epping Forest and Commons Committee in Essex, England. Mushroom foraging content has apparently led to an increase in visitors to the 8,000 acre Epping Forest and they are kindly asking as the British so often do, if those visitors could quote, click, don't pick.

Identifying nontoxic mushrooms should be left to the professionals, of course, but additionally, over foraging runs the risk of damaging the forest's ecosystem, which the BBC writes had been home to several significant fungi discoveries in recent years. Bots are looking at the Internet too much and we gotta figure out how to stop them. But how? Enter the IETF's AI preference working group. Here's the deal.

The burgeoning and perhaps waning, but who can say age of AI internet traffic has overwhelmingly shifted to bots, which are probably doing a number of things on an individual level. Maybe they're looking at a website to answer a question someone asked. Maybe they're scraping all of that content off of that website to train on it and build a proprietary model. The question is, what if it's your website and you don't want that to happen? Or you're okay with one of those things happening, but not the other.

Right now, we have no real way of saying no thank you to bot traffic, and we certainly have no fine control over which type of bots or access we want to allow or disallow. The IETF or the Internet Engineering Task Force is a volunteer organization responsible for setting standards for the Internet. The Center for Democracy and Technology writes, quote, the core network and transport protocols that the Internet runs on, like TCP IP for packet routing, IPV four and IPV six for addressing, DNS and DNS SEC for translating domain names to IP addresses, and HTTP slash HTTPS for transferring web pages were all standardized by the IETF, end quote. That task force has now turned their sights on bot traffic. The stakes of which are quite high not just because of the volume of traffic their recommendations could impact, but because the EU is currently posed to turn whatever standards they develop into regulations and forced by law.

So how do individual users and industry leaders like Adobe, Microsoft, Apple, etcetera, all of whom have seats on the IETF, set preferences for how they expect published material to be accessed and then used if the thing accessing and then using it is a bot? And how are those standards set in a way that enforcement, which IETF has no hand in, is both clear and effective. As AI gobbles up more of the Internet, lack of clear standards leads to piecemeal solutions. Publishers enclose their work behind paywalls or service providers like Cloudflare invent their own traffic management solutions. The IETF is then racing against several clocks to determine the best, clearest, and most ecumenical solution to these issues.

The group met as recently as August 28, and all of their meetings for this session are up on YouTube if you'd like to watch them. The discussions are fascinating, detailed, and at times highly technical. While no formal standards have been set at the time of writing, they are expected to be forthcoming presently.

No.

Vietnam is suffering degraded Internet service indefinitely as four subsea cables providing a connection to the country have faults. Overall internet capacity is down 30% and the national telecom has warned residents that international connections may be slow. Eight total cables, six of them international service Vietnam. Though a series of recent issues have, lightreading.com reports, quote, prompted the Vietnamese Ministry of Information and Communications to approve the construction of at least 10 new subsea cables by 2030, end quote. Developing telecoms.com says a reason for the faults has not been given.

The number you've called is disconnected.

And finally, the pope warns that artificial intelligence could lead to new forms of domination if not appropriately regulated. In the address of his holiness Pope Leo the fourteenth to participants in the meeting of the International Catholic Legislators Network dated Friday, 08/21/2026, the pontiff says quote, the rapid development of artificial intelligence risks creating new forms of technological dependence with poorer nations increasingly reliant on wealthier ones. We must remain vigilant in this regard, lest innovation become another vehicle for ideological or economic colonialism. Sadly, we are presented with a subtle form of domination when algorithms decide who is seen, who remains invisible, when digital platforms shape public discourse without accountability, and when the dignity of workers is subordinated to the optimization of systems. Such developments reveal a new face of the ancient temptation to domination and mastery without service, end quote.

Contrary to what you might otherwise hear on the Internet, you do not need to hand it to the head of the Catholic church. However, credit where it is due, calling corporate backed AI developed without human concern a new face of ancient temptation goes hard as hell. After the break, George is gonna sit down with Matt Sitman from Know Your Enemy to talk more about the Pope, AI, algorithms, and technological domination.

On August 21, Pope Leo the fourteenth made a public statement to the International Catholic Legislators Network warning against the dangers of the algorithm. As reported by Vatican News, His Holiness advocated for laws to quote, protect users from exploitation, preserve personal privacy, ensure transparency in the use of emerging technologies, and guarantee that they strengthen democratic institutions. Poplio explained that online, quote, we are presented with a subtle form of domination when algorithms decide who is seen and who remains invisible. When digital platforms shape public discourse without accountability, and when the dignity of workers is subordinated to the optimization of systems. He warned that no single ideology should be wielding this kind of power.

And if that emergent tech, like social media algorithms and artificial intelligence, are left to encroach upon and influence our lives without any safeguards in place, then they will erode the very foundation of humanity. Now, I'm not Catholic. I'm not Christian. I'm not even religious. And it feels very surprising and a little confusing, maybe, to hear the pope voice pretty much the exact same concerns I have about the technological infrastructure of modern life.

And I was very curious to know more about the relationship between Pope Leo and technology. So I spoke to Matt Sitman. He's a cohost of the podcast Know Your Enemy and crucial to this conversation, a former associate editor of the largest Catholic opinion journal in the country, Commonweal Magazine. And he explained to me that Pope Leo's stance on technology actually starts way before August. It can be traced back directly to the reason that this pope chose the name Leo in the first place.

So this is Leo the fourteenth. Soon after he was elected pope on his choice of name, he said this, I chose to take the name Leo the fourteenth. There are different reasons for this but mainly because Pope Leo the thirteenth in his historic encyclical Rare Novarum addressed the social question in the context of the first great industrial revolution. In our own day, the church offers to everyone the treasury of her social teaching in response to another industrial revolution and to developments in the field of artificial intelligence that posed new challenges for the defense of human dignity, justice, and labor. And just for another bit more of that what rare novarme, that encyclical he mentioned, that came out he put out his first encyclical earlier this year in May.

I believe it was May 15, and that was on the anniversary of that very encyclical that he mentioned, Rerum Novarum. The encyclical has become the format in which popes kind of weigh in on big issues and kind of give their both kind of the Catholic take, but also it tends to be something they're really concerned about. This is like a major it's like official doctrine in a way, right? It's part of the magisterium, meaning the kind of it's it's the Pope speaking in a fairly formal capacity. Right?

And really, what Reverend Novarum was was talking about the rights of labor, of working people in the context of this great industrial revolution. I mean, Leo the thirteenth, the the prior pope Leo, he is blistering when he talks about the exploitation and abuse of working people as these new technologies developed. Again, this is the context of the industrial revolution. But he says the decline of say the medieval guilds that offered workers some protection, like these new developments in the way the economy functions and the way people are working, that what their jobs are, they're leaving working people just totally unable to kind of defend themselves at the mercy of ever bigger, more powerful, you know, corporations. This is the age of, you know, massive wealth inequality taking off in a certain way with like, you know, robber barons and titans of industry.

And so it's very interesting to me that right out of the gate, Pope Leo the fourteenth, the current pope, calls back to this prior this is really the start of Catholic social teaching, a phrase he used in that in that statement and that you'll probably hear me saying, that's just kind of that's that's kind of how Catholics think about society and politics in ways that should be, you know, they're not always explicitly dependent on the Bible or Christian revelation in a certain way, natural law, things that reasonable people can think about together and consider and discuss, you know, that's when that started. You know, it's been this body of thought and Pope Leo was saying, we need to update this body of thought that Catholics have been thinking about since the industrial revolution, specifically in this context of AI and new emerging technologies because he thinks this is like the issue of our time on par with the industrial revolution.

So thinking of this encyclical as I mean, a a foundational text of his beliefs and as you said, his his addition to Catholic social teachings. I'd be interested to hear more about Pope Leo's interpretation of that in regards to AI because then we obviously need to get to his points about the algorithm and how that fits in.

Yes. Well, you know, with AI, kind of generally speaking, and this this will lead into, you know, what he says specifically about algorithms because I did check and in Magnifica Humanitas, the encyclical, we're discussing algorithms are mentioned by name at least 19 times.

Woah.

Yeah. Like, so in some ways, AI and algorithms are they're not identical for Pope Leo. Like I think we can, you know, disentangle them some, but his critique of them both is basically he's very concerned about them becoming a form of domination that is insidious and subtle because who's doing it? Right? It's it's like it's not I or you or we or even they, it's the algorithm doing it.

Right? And he makes that point a lot with technology, not just the algorithm specifically, but in general with AI. He's like, who are like, is there democratic input? You know, say the the all the fights now in The US over data centers. Right?

It's kind of like, well, is this just a technical problem or is this really a problem about people in a democracy having some say over what can be built in their backyard or what are they being you know, what laws regulate what we are seeing, what is being fed to us. Do we have any say in this? Can there be any democratic control? Pope Leo, he always is coming back to the defense of human dignity and saying, can we need to take a step back and think about how the power and control this gives tech overlords, that gives massive corporations, what this might do to the already rampant inequality, wealth inequality in our societies, the jobs that might be lost. All these are things that we should be discussing in a democratic way and that people should have some say over.

That word domination is the one he uses a lot. An insidious subtle form of domination because it's not coming through like armies invading your country or a tyrannical leader seizing political power, but it's through technologies we're all kind of adopting just almost passively. Right? He's saying it's it's kind of like just shaking us say, whatever you decide. I mean, he has his own view, but it's like we are sleepwalking into, well, something he likens to the industrial revolution.

Yeah. I mean, in in his most recent statements, he compares this kind of slippery slope, like, passive adoption of AI whole cloth as a threat of ideological colonialism. And what's interesting to me, certainly as someone who has, I mean, virtually no relationship to the the Pope and and the Catholic Church writ large, that so many of of his comments kind of don't have very much to do specifically with AI as a threat to like religion or Catholicism, but as like an existential threat to us as people.

Yes. Totally. I mean, this is how he starts his encyclical. I mean, he mentions humanity created in all its grandeur by God, you know, references the biblical stories like the Tower Of Babel and things like that. But I mean, he's very clear that he wants to he wants to build a city founded on the common good, to use his language.

And so that means like it's it it is not yeah. His concern is not what does this mean for the Catholic church. It means his concern is what does it mean for human beings? And he addresses kind of all people of goodwill, you know, to join in these deliberations, you know. He might use specifically Christian language or idiom, but he does not I I think like any person of goodwill who cares about like treating other human beings well, you know, human dignity, that's a concept that yeah, he talks about it as a Catholic, but he addresses this encyclical to everyone who might make a contribution to helping us discern the best way forward and build the common good.

Something about this that is also very intriguing to me, and it's interesting that you mentioned the Industrial Revolution as a previous focus of analysis and some concern. My curiosity is also about where the pope, I guess, specifically exists in relation to emergent technologies, sort of historically. Because my very outsider presumption, I think, before this conversation was one where it was like, oh, well, it's like the concern is of modernity. The concern is of a certain kind of modernity that is maybe independent of traditional religious practice?

Well, I mean, you're not wrong to to kind of have wondered about that because there are, you know, different popes sometimes do offer more kind of comprehensive critiques of just, you know, like the technology becomes sort of, you know, emblem of things that have gone wrong more broadly in modernity. Right? Sometimes it popes have slipped into that. It is kind of fascinating to me, like, the relationship between popes and technology, like some of the first, like, radio stations, you know, or the first, like, telescopes that looked at the stars, you know, astronomy. Like, different postures toward technology, you might say, over the centuries.

Mean Galileo would probably have a lot to say about Yes.

Yes. But I will say Pope Leo, one of the really interesting things about him is he his degree as an undergraduate was in mathematics. And he the religious order he before becoming pope, bishop, and then cardinal and pope that he was is a member of is the Augustinian order. And you don't really need to know much about that other than, you know, the vows of poverty and obedience, your typical kind of monk like behavior or, you know, brothers, you know. But he they needed a website at some point, and Pope Leo just made it himself.

Oh. Like he built a website. So like my sense is this is a guy who studied math at at Villanova back when, you know, when he was in college and has had a keen interest in technology along the way. He built the first website for his Augustinian order, think just because he seems like that kind of guy, right, who's kind of like handy and knows something about tech and has a I would say, he's not just like this, you know, removed priest who someone hands him a briefing on AI. I think the fact that he chose the name he did, explained it the way he did right away.

His first day as pope meant that this is a guy who's been thinking about technology and artificial intelligence intelligence specifically for quite a while. And when he came in as pope and said, this is this is our industrial revolution, I think that says not just something about his political instincts and values, but kind of his his own biography and the interesting relationship Pope Leo has with technology himself.

Is is it right for me to assume he's like the first online pope?

You're not wrong to assume that because, I mean, it was pretty clear that, say, Pope Benedict the sixteenth or Pope Francis, you know, they were of an age where, like, they really, you know, like, I have grandparents who have never sent or received an email. Right. I think they're kind of like maybe in closer to that category, but Pope Leo, like, is very aware of the kind of political discourse in The United States. And like, there have been reports that have come out that essentially, he's kind of online, like kind of is still on Twitter. Least at least to kind of I've wondered, does he have a burner account?

You know? Oh my god. But like, he's aware of what people are saying about the Catholic church himself and kind of, you know, when he does something like put out an encyclical on artificial intelligence, he is not simply just being handed, I think, like a briefing book again of like tweets that people are saying or headlines. I think he is personally engaged in a way that I don't know all the specifics of, but I kind of believe everything I just said, right, about where he came from in his biography, it kind of makes sense to me that he would sort of be keeping an eye on what people are saying about, you know, some of his interventions in our public life. Especially, he's the first American pope, which we haven't mentioned yet.

But so he's but I think he's really so that's kind of interesting just in terms of technology. Like, it kind of would be the first American who, you know, maybe has some of these impulses, but also he knows just how deranged the right wing of the Catholic church is in The United States. And he knows they literally trying to kind of destroy Pope Francis's papacy. I think Leo is like, I cannot I cannot simply outsource this. Like, I'm an American, I'm the first American pope.

I know what these people, you know, I know what they're up to. I know they're up to no good. And I'm not just going to kind of passively respond to their criticisms, but I'm going you could I think he's engaged in a certain way and that has something to do with his interest in in relationship to technology.

I do wanna talk about I don't know if it's gauche to separate the broader practice of Catholicism or certainly the way it exists in this country from the pope. But I wonder where AI sits within Catholicism as a system beyond just the pope and clearly his perspective on it.

Well, you know, I think one way to to begin to answer that question, and I I'm gonna read from his encyclical. This came out in May. So these were before some of the most recent comments that prompted this conversation. But I think this is a good example of how it might relate to Catholicism more broadly or how you can see where it doesn't doesn't relate to it. Leo writes, indeed, entrusting an algorithm in practice with the power to select who is worthy or not without anyone bearing responsibility for that judgment is to hand over the task of redefining the boundaries of human possibilities.

In this process, political responsibility is also lost. Not just empathy toward those excluded which can after all be simulated. The exclusion of the vulnerable becomes cloaked in a veneer of neutrality and objectivity against which it becomes difficult to raise objections. In this way, injustice goes unnoticed and compassion, mercy and forgiveness understood not as mere appearances but as real political actions gradually disappear from view. So you can see that he's not saying anything about going to church or Catholic doctrine there, but it would also be a mistake to not see that at some level, that phrase, the task of redefining the boundaries of human possibilities, that could not but be a concern of any religious faith really.

Right? Because I mean, religions, one thing they do is they say this is what it means to be a human being. What it means to be born, to suffer, to live, and to die. Right? And and so there is a way in which AI is it's not a specifically Catholic concern in the sense of all the particulars of the Catholic faith, but in another sense, it is it goes right to the heart of the claims the Catholic church makes.

Maybe what this the reason like Pope someone like Pope Leo has to weigh in or why it's like such an urgent matter for him is, does not AI isn't it actually forcing us to ask questions about what it really and truly means to be a human being? Like, we're really getting down to very concrete questions of like, what is the difference between something I write and create as a human being and something the algorithm or the AI chatbot does? Right? That is making you say, what does it really mean to be human? And that is something that like, whatever else you think of them, that's what religions have answered for us.

And so it's almost like AI is almost throwing us back on such elemental questions of what it means to be a human being.

Yeah. I I mean, I just keep going back to your point about what was it, Catholic social doctrine?

Yes. Mhmm.

Because I will say again, as someone who is not Catholic and has no relationship to Catholicism, hearing the pope make any kind of statement about technology, before I even know what it is, I have to admit there's a part of me that's like, well, is the threat here that this technology will take people away from the doctrine of Catholicism?

Yeah.

And it's a and it's just more control. But that kinda doesn't sound like what is going on.

I I know what that's so interesting. I know where you're going with that or I I I'm tracking with you. And I think part of it is because I have the same tendencies actually. Like, I'm, you know, I'm a bit of a dissident in the church, so, you know, I have some of those skeptical impulses as well. But where I'm going with that is that, like it's not a threat the technology isn't a threat to the Catholic church per se or it's not you know, Pope Leo isn't criticizing it because he realizes it like it's it's, you know he's not saying what he's saying because he wants more control.

But there is a way in which I kind of wonder the extent to which artificial intelligence, it's kind of the way we live online now, in the place of technology and kind of like inhabiting our consciousness. If like maybe what's going on is like the very possibility of a rich spiritual life is being threatened. And so, you know, like sitting in solitude, like I often say to my friends, like, why do you go to church? And I said, there's lots of reasons. But I said, among other things, like, even in periods of my life where my faith was not as robust or alive as it as it has been in others, I would still go to church because where else in our society do you, like, sit there quietly not looking at your phone for, you know, somewhere between forty five minutes and a little over an hour and let alone sit there quietly and think about your life.

And it's like there are ways in which you don't have to go to church to do that, obviously. But I do feel like churches are one of the, you know, number of ever shrinking number of spaces where like quiet and solitude and thinking about your life in a certain way is encouraged and that can be through meditation practices, that can be through other religious traditions, that can be through running, right, in the morning and thinking, love being alive and I love this world. But all those things, all impulses toward interiority and I think reflectiveness and thoughtfulness and thinking about your life in an intentional way are threatened by the kind of array of technological devices and algorithms and social media sites, like, literally or, you know, designed to make us addicted to them.

Mhmm.

Right? There's there's a great line of the poet, W. H. Auden, where he says, all sin tends to be addicting, and the terminal point of addiction is damnation. Woah.

And I which that's, you know, really heavy to drop at this point in the conversation. But you know what I'm saying? Like like, I think that might be that's my very circuitous answer to your question that I think like, yeah, what Pope Leo's alarm, it's not like, oh, how can I talk about this to kind of gain more power for the Catholic church, which some popes, you know, might have done? I really think this is a truly earnest, honest, like, cry from his heart about, like, us being on the brink of kind of not really being fully human anymore in terms of the way we treat each other and organize our society.

Which is just a question of like the essential act of being alive. Like, his comments about the algorithm and very much them being one of of control is part of that, I think.

The control part, you know, it's very interesting. In the more recent comments about the algorithm specifically that Pope Leo has made, I thought it was really fascinating, and I'd love your reaction to this, is he's comparing it to colonialism. Right? Like a new the algorithm is a new form of economic domination that really a new form of a new form of colonialism. And I think like that kind of language may be more apt than we realize because like what is being colonized?

Our minds and souls Yes. Among other things. Yes. Right? But that I think what did you think of I mean, surely, you stood up a little straighter in your chair when you start to see a pope talking about because of the efficiency or the greater good.

Right? Like like, some of what we're talking about is like, what what about all the tax revenue from data centers? Right? Well well well, yes, there are that tax revenue, but what lives you know, what water are you willing to poison? Right?

What what parts of the natural environment are you willing to, you know, build these centers on? Or like, what people are you going to displace? Or what jobs are going to be displaced? Right? You sometimes just have to say no.

It's no. You can't do this to other people. You just can't. And there's and there's not many voices in the world who will say no no no no no even as the tax revenues start coming in. Even as the even as the geopolitical competition with China takes center stage.

Even, you know, you can name all the reasons, it'd be great to fudge on human dignity and say, actually this group of people, their dignity, we can actually erase the circle around it and say it's expendable in this case. That's always a temptation, always. And so I think one one reason, like the passage I just moved about infinite dignity, every human being possesses infinite dignity without exception no matter what state they find themselves in, is because that's just not something you hear very much.

That is the news we have for you this week. We are gonna be back here in the main feed on or around Thursday, September 10. Help us. Help us. Help us continue to make this show by becoming a member at $4, $8, or $12 a month.

Your support makes Never Post possible. That is not an exaggeration. Become a member at neverpo.st. Never Post's producers are Audrey Evans, Georgia Hampton, and the mysterious doctor first name last name. Our senior producer is Hans Buto.

Our executive producer is Jason Oberholzer, the show's host, that's me, is Mike Ragneto. Suck up stork torso into the jet engine like a fork in the throat so the engine goes YOLO BOGO putt putt, flashing its famous lights like teeth though. Excerpt of Day of Being by Joy l McSweeney. Never Post is a production of Charts and Leisure, and it's distributed by Radiotopia.